My piano theory class with Mark Levine...

[lonniemoseley]

I just got out of a live piano theory workshop here in northern California given by the esteemed jazz pianist, author and educator, Mark Levine; and I couldn’t wait to get back home (home being Willie Myette and PianoWithWillie.com).

In all fairness I shouldn’t have been surprised that I was overwhelmed in a class titled, “Jazz Theory Complete in Two Hours!” After all, the exclamation mark was part of the title advertised for the workshop at the www.jazzschool.org website; and the II-V-I progression was being discussed through the different scale systems.

And I was delighted that my lessons from Willie allowed me to hold my own in the workshop for understanding the II-V-I theory information in the Major scale.

I absolutely shined when Mr. Levine discussed tritone substitutions (thank you, Willie). I even held onto the reins of the theory horse that was running with breakneck speed through the various modes (Ionian, dorian, etc.).

However, when Mr. Levine got to the jazz Melodic Minor scale and began to discuss II-V-I in minor and that the “II” was really the VI and the “V” was really the “VII” and the “I” was….well, I can’t even describe what the “I” was…

At that point in the class, I lost hold of the reins and fell off the theory horse and watched it gallop away. Other students who were nodding their heads up and down in complete comprehension, I could tell had also fallen off their horses and were lying by the side of road pretending to still be on their horses.

The example used by Mr. Levine was the C melodic minor. The I=C with b3 and major 7th and he called it the minor major; the II=D sus b9 (but is not the II used in the II-V-I); the III=Eb major +5—which he called Lydian Augmented; the IV=F (with a +4 and a b6 and he called that Lydian Dominant); V=doesn’t exist; VI=A minor7 b5 (and he said that this was really the II chord…aaarrgghhh); VII=B7 altered (and this is really the V chord) and then he said that the “I” chord was Eb. I have no clue how that could be.

There was talk that we moved in 3 different keys in the melodic minor—and after that statement, I knew there was no hope of finding and getting back on the theory horse and I ran home to PianoWithWillie.com.

So Willie (enough with my theory horse metaphors)…are there minor key lessons you have created that you can point me to; or can you explain what II-V-I in melodic minor is and what Mr. Levine was talking about?


Faithfully yours…never to take an outside theory class again,
Lonnie Moseley

[place]

Lonnie,
Wow, I love this post! It contains several authentic LOL moments. What a tremendous opportunity you had to attend that workshop. I completely understand becoming overwhelmed and/or slightly confused. Many teachers or books try to say the same the thing, but use different terminology or approach it from a different angle. Sometimes this can sound like a foreign language or another subject entirely. This is the wonderful and exciting, and often frustrating, thing about music theory.

The fact that you grasped so much is a testament to your progress and the strong foundation you have developed from Wille’s lesson. I would suggest getting back on your theory horse and continue to read, attend workshops, and soak up whatever you can concerning music, piano, theory, whatever. I'm sure Willie doesn't think we're committing musical adultery, or somehow cheating on him when we read books and attend classes with other teachers.

You’re right–when confused the best thing to do is come back to what you know–in your (our) case: pianowithwillie.com. I love how you call it home. Indeed, "Home Sweet Home" for so many of us.

Thanks again for posting.

[wmyette]

Lonnie, I too agree that it sounded like a great opportunity. Mark Levine really has a lot of knowledge in Jazz Theory and his Jazz Theory book is a great resource.

Stories like this always bring me back to "Earth." Let me explain....

When I think of learning music, I think of it as a globe. When you look at a globe, you only see one part of it. You need to turn it in ALL directions to get the big picture. This is exactly what you are doing by getting information from other sources.

Mark is right, feel free to branch out and get information from other sources. But, come back to me if you have a question (if you want to of course, nobody forces anyone on this site ;-) and I will be happy to help you through the theory "maze."

I will do a lesson on minor theory within the next 2 weeks. I'll add tat to my schedule because I think it is 1) very important and 2) very cool theory stuff!

So, again, thanks for the post and be sure to watch for that Minor Theory lesson. I know what ML is talking about and maybe I can explain it so it sheds some new light on the subject for you. "Turn the globe a bit for you"...if you will.

-w

[place]

Thanks Willie, a minor harmony lesson will be tremendous. BTW I can’t say for sure what was being explained, since I obviously wasn’t there; and hopefully Willie will touch on this in his lesson, but in the mean time, with apologies to Mr. Levine, here’s my guess:

One of the amazing things about melodic minor scale harmony is that, for the most part, there are no “avoid” notes. This means there is an incredible amount of interchangeability between the chords of a given key. This is not true in major harmony. For example, a typical rootless voicing of a Cm(maj7) chord would be: Eb G B D. Basically a Ebmaj7#5 chord. This exact voicing will work for six chords of the key. That is every note of the scale except for G or the dominant (which is probably why he said it doesn’t exist). In other words, by playing the same rootless voicing (Eb G B D) and only changing the bass note you get:

Bass note - chord
C - Cm(maj7)
D - Dsusb9
Eb - Ebmaj7#5
F - F7#11
A - Am7b5
B - B7alt

All six chords are basically interchangeable because, except for roots, they are the same and with no avoid notes in the melodic minor harmony. If your not playing the roots, they are exactly the same. Pretty amazing, huh?

[lonniemoseley]

Dear Willie and Mark,

Thank you both for the soothing "verbal bandages" placed on the scrapes and bruises I got attending Mr. Levine's theory workshop.

And Mark, in my notes from the workshop I have big underlines under the two words "Avoid Notes"; and also the notes Eb, G, B, D written everywhere in the margins on my notebook--but I lost my capacity to know what they meant after 90 minutes into the class...so yes, yes...that's what Mr. Levine was talking about.

Mark, your wonderful explanation is (and will be) very helpful as I go down the road to understanding minor harmony in the promised lessons from Willie. I'll look forward to the student-to-student sharing and also asking you questions--that I don't want to bother Willie with.

One last note, there is no teacher like Willie Myette. Period. You already know this, Mark; and Willie isn't asking me for a testimonial. But at a certain point in the class after Mr. Levine asked in his somewhat condescending way (unintentional, I'm sure), if everything was clear, I piped up and said "No, I don't get it. You'll have to come up with another explanation."

I thought the man's eyes would pop out of his head at my intimation that he couldn't explain his "stuff"...ha ha ha. But understand I have had Willie Myette as my model of what a real teacher is; and I know the experience of when a teacher cares and tries and tries and tries to explain so that his students get it. Willie is never cavalier or cocky with his students.

Now Willie, I know, you'll distance yourself from what you will call my "charitable characterizations" of you; but I have taken A LOT OF PIANO LESSONS in my day and am finally home and happy at pianowithwillie.com.

So, I look forward to the coming "Minor Theory Lesson" and to conversations with Mark.

Thank you both for your support and I'm recuperating nicely,
Lonnie

[wmyette]

Thank you Lonnie! That was an incredibly sweet thing to say.

This is related but a side note.....

I've been on the Internet since the beginning. In fact I used to use Delphi's command-line "BBS-type" Internet. My point is that I've seen it all online and I have to tell you....there are a lot of nasty people out there. I know you all know this, but man, just go to YouTube and you see all kinds of people trying to bring other people down. It is really bad and quite sad that people are filled with so much pain and anger that they actually want to write it down and bring a complete stranger down.

Anyway, I am so happy that we have created a "safe" and corporative environment here. This is because of ALL OF YOU! Mark, you have been great answering students questions...I really appreciate it. And students, like yourself Lonnie, help us to challenge ourselves, do what we love and teach you the best way we know how.

So, this was a long-winded "Thank You!" to all of my students.

I'll work on that minor lesson. Mark was right on, there are some really cool symmetrical structures in melodic minor that will be cool to discuss.

Talk soon!

[puppy]

Just imagine if Paul Revere fell of his horse and decided not to get back on.
There might have been no jazz.
The composing we have to do on the fly in jazz is no easy feat.
We work for weeks on one measure trying to get down the right voicings, and just when
we’re ready to throw in the towel, presto...the fingers go there automatically.
Totally excited, you perk up and say, “OMG, that was great! What did I do?”
That’s the magic of jazz and it’s what keeps us hungry for more.
So saddle back up! The theory beast has met its match.

I think Willie does a terrific job explaining the theory. Please keep it coming -
particularly the dominant motion concept. It’s such a cool sound.
Thank you,
Wanda

[mjbrooks]

Hi Lonnie

I can imagine what you must have gone through in at the workshop, and my congrats for having ridden the wave as long as you did.

A couple of weeks ago I reached a point in one of my jazz theory books where it headed into a discussion of modal melodic minor. My brain fogged over, so I decided to take a break and pick up where I'd left off with Mark Levine's book. No prizes for guessing that within half a chapter I'd got to melodic minor harmony there too, and the clouds began their inexorable descent once again.

When Willie announced a few days ago that he was releasing a lesson on my new pet subject I heaved an enormous sigh of relief! Thus far I've gone only as far as the 2nd mode in Willie's lesson, and I've found that the fog is lifting and the pieces are beginning to fall into place. (Thanks Willie!)

I'm going to continue working through each mode one at a time, using both Willie's and Levine's explanations, and drilling & improvising each one in all keys. This is one chunk of theory that I'm looking forward to mastering - the sound of these harmonies is something I've loved and been fascinated with for years.

I hope you enjoy this new lesson as much as I am. Good luck with it!

Matthew

[lonniemoseley]

Willie and Mark,

I just went through the Melodic Minor Harmony Pt1 course, 2 times and I still don’t know what happened to the mode names from the major scale of Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian. Are you saying in the melodic minor scale, these modes are just numbered and don’t think of the names…just think Third Mode or Sixth Mode? [Willie, please know I’m very, very grateful for how quickly you put this MMH lesson together for your students].

Also, I’m not an improviser yet and the primary reason for my exploration into the melodic minor is to further understand chord progressions so to more easily memorize songs—as you talked to us about in many lessons.

So a classic major scale song of I, VI, II, V, I is easier to memorize because the chord progression is the thing to memorize.

Willie, in this Pt1 MMH lesson, you said that we’re not to think of songs coming entirely from the melodic minor scale but rather CERTAIN chords will come from that scale.

How then would you suggest memorizing the chord progressions when some of the chords in a song may come from this minor scale and others from the major scale; for example, the song, LAURA? [which I think goes back and forth between major and minor].

Ok and the final question (at least for tonight). I realized after scouring my theory books, that I had completely mixed up the Natural Minor with the Melodic Minor in terms of chord understanding and I’m starting to completely fog over (as Matthew put it in his post).

So is it really possible to maintain any chord progression memorization method when song chords are possibly moving through major, natural minor and melodic minor scales? Will that question be answered in Pt2?

Regards
--lonnie

[hilight01]

Hi Willie,

I'm new to your site as a Gold member, and I really enjoy your teaching style:). At the moment I'm still getting used to the site. In regards to the Melodic Minor Scale, it's still a little cloudy. But I'm sure it will come. I will keep reviewing and reviewing until it comes.

Sincerely,

Hiram

[wmyette]

Willie and Mark,

I just went through the Melodic Minor Harmony Pt1 course, 2 times and I still don’t know what happened to the mode names from the major scale of Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian. Are you saying in the melodic minor scale, these modes are just numbered and don’t think of the names…just think Third Mode or Sixth Mode? [Willie, please know I’m very, very grateful for how quickly you put this MMH lesson together for your students].

Also, I’m not an improviser yet and the primary reason for my exploration into the melodic minor is to further understand chord progressions so to more easily memorize songs—as you talked to us about in many lessons.

So a classic major scale song of I, VI, II, V, I is easier to memorize because the chord progression is the thing to memorize.

Willie, in this Pt1 MMH lesson, you said that we’re not to think of songs coming entirely from the melodic minor scale but rather CERTAIN chords will come from that scale.

How then would you suggest memorizing the chord progressions when some of the chords in a song may come from this minor scale and others from the major scale; for example, the song, LAURA? [which I think goes back and forth between major and minor].

Ok and the final question (at least for tonight). I realized after scouring my theory books, that I had completely mixed up the Natural Minor with the Melodic Minor in terms of chord understanding and I’m starting to completely fog over (as Matthew put it in his post).

So is it really possible to maintain any chord progression memorization method when song chords are possibly moving through major, natural minor and melodic minor scales? Will that question be answered in Pt2?

Regards
--lonnie

Right, we are only using certain chords from Melodic Minor. I will be releasing pt 2 this week and will discuss this further.